THE LAST INTERVIEW GIVEN BY HUBERTO ROHDEN

The following was published by a leading Brazilian magazine called VISÃO, and was the last interview given by Huberto Rohden to the journalist José Italo Stelle, at the headquarters of the Centre for Self-Realization Alvorada in São Paulo, Brazil and published on February 9, 1981. This interview addresses the issue of failures in school education not only in Brazil but in the vast majority of countries. And it is also a warning about self-education that should be awakened in man, that is, either man educates himself or not because one cannot expect only from the family and the education systems, the formation of a man in the educational and evolutional process if he himself does not educate himself!

The concepts of instruction and education are different.

Instruction is the transmission of knowledge or the formation of a certain skill; to educate is to socialize, to transmit patterns of behaviour in order to guarantee the continuity of human society.

In this interview, the journalist - who describes Rohden's physical appearance as being very tall, white hair, deep blue eyes, who simply dress and who, despite his advanced age, still has a very sharp mind - introduces readers, the wisdom of a man who lived his life in the service of humanity and showed to his fellow humans with his analytical and intuitive knowledge, the arrows to the path in search for self-knowledge and self-realization.

Rohden was 87 when he died a few months later, on October 7, 1981.

"Instruction at schools at any level teaches man to discover the laws of nature, i.e., science; but education leads man to create values within himself", says the Brazilian philosopher Huberto Rohden on this interview to the VISÃO magazine.

"There is no crisis of education in Brazil, nor any part of the globe. What in reality happens is a deplorable lack of true education". This is the opinion formulated by him regarding the so-called crisis of modern education. Rohden explains: "I'm not using the word "education" in the popular sense, referring to the degrees of instruction. I'm using this word in the strictly etymological and true way to "educe", to deduct, to extract from within, indicating that the educator must educe, to develop and manifest what already exists in the nature of the learner". It is this reason on which, in the opinion of Professor Rohden, "a philosophy or theology that admits beforehand that man is evil by his very nature cannot talk about to educe; it can only try to force the student to do something alien to his nature, and that is the opposite of education".

Like Socrates, Plato and the Stoics (those who remain faithful to virtue and knowledge), Rohden believes that good social order cannot be established with political deceptive tactics. A good social order does not originate in politics, but in ethics that promotes proper values in the consciousness of citizens and leaders of society: it is projected into society, but is rooted in the individual.

V - Do you have dedicated much of your time here in the Alvorada Institution, emphasizing the differences between instruction and education?

HR - No, not exactly. I have only spoken about self-knowledge and self-realization of human nature. This includes everything and goes far beyond education. We have to become self-realized. We are still at an embryonic level, preliminary; human "seeds". Symbolically speaking, we have to realize our human "seed" in the form of a perfect human "plant". Our main concern is the self-knowledge of human nature and its self-realization in practical life. We have to know who we are and to live according to who we are. A man should be self-realized. At the moment he is only achievable. Self-realization includes two things: either the instruction on science and consciousness on education. Governments can only instruct in technical subjects, trades, science, etc.; but cannot educate in the conscience level. The education of conscience is of the individual's conscience. We only have a Ministry of Instruction; we do not have a Ministry of Education. Does not exist any Ministry of Education in any country; and may not exist. There is a lack of clearness between instruction and education. Education is a concept much deeper than instruction. Instruction refers to broaden the intellect, intelligence; education is consciousness. Instruction at schools makes man instructed in some subject; education is responsible to shape a good man of good values. Both are necessary but the most important is the education of conscience.

V - So, contrary to what is assumed nowadays, education is an individual activity?

HR – It is eminently individual. There cannot be a social activity. It is reflected in society but is rooted in the individual. There is only self-education; there is no education coming from any external sources. Either man is self-educated or not educated at all. Others cannot educate me; they can only show me the path by which I can educate myself.

V - So, this is the purpose of the teacher - to show?

HR - Yes, the teacher is a guide. It can show to the student the path for self-education. There is so much confusion today about education. Among hundreds of books on education, barely I found one that I could entirely approve. Some have good approaches but does not stress the essential subject that is self-education.

V - It is said in recent debates that the Brazilian educational system is in crisis. Do you agree?

HR - Crisis supposes a presence. There is no crisis; what exists is a deplorable lack of true education.

V - From where this lack of true education came from?

HR – It is the result of the historic fact that our human evolution is not in an evolved level. We are not in the age of uncertainty which the economist J. K. Galbraith said; rather, we are in a permanent state of uncertainty, because humanity is not progressing reason wisely, only in intelligence, intellect, and has not yet reached the level of reason, conscience. We lack an advanced ethical discipline. Albert Einstein, who was a great luminary, said: "The discovery of the laws of nature makes the learned man, but does not makes the good man. A good man is one who performs the values that are within his consciousness. The world of facts, which is the science, does not conduct any way to the world of values, which is consciousness. Facts do not produce values, because values come from another region". Teilhard de Chardin once wrote that: "Man came from the biosphere. He is at the level of the noosphere (noos mean intelligence in Greek), and acts accordingly to the noosphere". We came from the biosphere, i.e., the sphere of life. We become intellectualized in thousands of years of existence; we came from the biosphere to the noosphere. We went from the sphere of life to the sphere of intelligence - and we are still at this level. Above noosphere there is the logosphere, which is the sphere of consciousness; but we are not there yet.

V - Some individuals are at a higher level of knowledge than most of humanity?

HR - Of course. There are isolated individuals, sporadic, who are in the sphere of education consciousness. But the majority are not at that level. It is a matter of the evolution of humanity. We cannot blame Brazil or anyone else. It is the lack of a higher evolution of humanity. On the sphere in which we are, we cannot have an education; we can only be subjects of instruction. All crimes, violence and terrorisms come from there. Science cannot abolish terror; only consciousness can do it. Someone said naively: "to open a school is to close a jail", and the experience of reality proves that the great criminals of humanity were not illiterate, but rather men with lack of conscious education.

V - And the churches, do not encourage education?

HR - Church theology teaches that it is better to die properly than to live properly. If a man lives fifty years killing, stealing, defrauding, buying forgiveness by donating property and money to the church as a way to reduce the amount of punishment one has to undergo for sins and, in the last five minutes of his life, he confesses and converts, goes to heaven and lives eternal life. This is an anti-pedagogical invitation, an invitation in disguise for a bad life, as long as there is a good death. Theologies are vehemently opposed to the education of the conscience, for simple morality is not education. And this is a complaint that I make on a real basis, as I have held the priesthood for 25 years.

V - But the churches do not preach the Gospel's ethics?

HR - No. They replaced the Gospel by the theology. The Gospel requires an honest life from beginning to end. But the churches preach simply that is enough for man the conversion at the last minute, trying to fix his mistakes with a false interpretation of the words of Jesus, to the thief on the cross.

V - Apart from theology, there are in your opinion, other philosophies opposed to the education operating in the so-called educational systems.

HR - The "educational systems" are full of these philosophies. See, for instance, B. F. Skinner's behaviourism. He says: "freedom is a myth and free will does not exist". It is a philosophy that says we are like an automaton, that we are conditioned by the environment. However, if there is no free will, then there is no basis for education. Man has the choice to be good or bad; that is, in him is opened the possibility of self-education, or not. But if a man is forced by the circumstances to be bad, or good, then the whole basis for education is over. We do not deny that circumstances may hinder the exercise of free will, but we deny that a normal man can be forced by the circumstances to be good or bad.

V - The moral emptiness, existential anguish that many seem to feel nowadays and which is constantly represented in modern art, paintings, theatre, literature, films, television, in the media as a whole in the social spheres, etc. from where they come?

HR - Comes from a lack of self-knowledge and a lack of true education. These social factors – the media as a whole - cannot educate because education is a highly individual process. What the mentioned social factors could and should do is to remove or reduce the barriers to true education. Unfortunately, almost all programs on cinemas, radio, television are blatantly anti-educational. And this ends in a vacuum or an existential frustration.

V - Which is the relationship between human nature and self-education?

HR - Self-education is the perfect evolution of the integral nature in man. It is not something foreign inserted therein; it is the inner content of his own nature, educed, and manifested in the external, individual and social life. The profane man without self-comprehension, abuses everything, including himself, in order to have moments of superficial pleasure. Moreover, the mystical man, isolationist, refuses to use any object; simply refuses everything. But the cosmic self-educated man, and self-realized, use everything without abusing anything. And this is true education. The educator must show that the learner wants to be faithful to his own nature and be happy, although that happiness is not always free from suffering. As long as the student confuses happiness with joy or unhappiness with suffering, consequently, there will be no open path to true education. The self-educated man can be happy in the midst of suffering and may also be unhappy in the midst of pleasures. The basis of self-education is self-knowledge, as said the Greek philosophers: "Know thyself".

V - There will be in the modern world a movement for self-education?

HR - Thankfully, there are in all countries small groups that are carrying on seriously self-education. I know the existence of the Neugeist (New Spirit) movements in Germanic countries; and the Self-Realization in Anglo-Saxon countries which in England is also known as The New Outlook, Seicho-No-Ie in Japan, and others. These movements are also represented in Brazil. But are private initiatives of small elites who take seriously their self-realization based on self-knowledge of human nature and ethics, manifested in the daily individual experience and social life. Fortunately, the most influential educator of all times said more than 2000 years ago: "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you, but it is still a hidden treasure, that ye shall discover". With that, Jesus affirms the presence of a good element in man and the need he has to reveal in his everyday life this hidden treasure. This is pure self-education.

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Alvorada is an institution that promotes the ideal of individual self-realization, without which no social reform is possible. The idea started in 1952, materialized in 1956. It was made official by Huberto Rohden as a cultural, charitable and non-profit organization that is still managed today by some of his former students and by individuals who promote studies, the word and the wisdom of this great thinker so that people can integrate more and more into the cosmic spirit of the great masters that humanity knows.

Currently, Rohden's teachings and writings have been published by Editora Martin Claret (Brazil), which holds the copyright to publish his books and of private initiatives in the studies and discussions of his literary ideas and on social networks. The initiative to introduce English and Spanish-speaking audiences to his teachings have not yet reached 10 years, and they bring to their authors the realization of an ideal, in expanding the works of what was, Huberto Rohden, one of the great philosophers of the 20th century.